Conversation Between Writers


Jeremy Zimmerman

Today on Conversations Between Writers I talk to Jeremy Zimmerman [website, Twitter] (no relation, though we joke) about the second book in his YA superhero series Kensei: For The Love Of Danger that he’s currently Kickstartering part of the cost of publishing. Jeremy along with his lovely wife Dawn Vogel are also the evil geniuses behind Mad Scientist Journal. I was lucky enough to get to Beta-read this ambitious novel (Kensei takes place in the shared superhero world of Cobalt City and I have a Cobalt City character who happens to be Kensei’s roller derby coach. Jeremy always checks with me to make sure he’s treating my character with respect.) and I really enjoyed it. It’s a super fun read with a lot going on. I hope you’ll consider backing it.

Minerva Zimmerman: So you’re heading back onto the streets of Cobalt City once again with Kensei: For The Love Of Danger. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?

Jeremy Zimmerman: I’ve been working on my sequel to my first book, Kensei, and have a Kickstarter going to pay for some of the production costs. The sequel brings back the titular Kensei, who finds herself having to deal with a lot of legacies. Not only do her grandparents learn about her crimefighting and have something to say about it, but there’s also a World War Two supervillain who has come back from the dead in order to kill Kensei.

MZ: Yikes! So what challenges did you have in writing about a teenage superhero whose crime-fighting isn’t a secret from her family and in fact is complicated by her family?

JZ: Some of it was just fitting it with what had already been established. When I first created the character, she had no idea that her family also had a history with superheroes. It’s been a careful line to walk in order to make it plausible that it was kept from Jamie. Plus Jamie is half Japanese and have African American. Treating her family’s dual backgrounds with respect required a lot of research.

MZ: Do you have a favorite part of doing the research for this book?

JZ: Do I have to choose just one?

MZ: No! I’m just curious where your research took you and even some of the things you couldn’t use

JZ: Starting with Jamie’s family, one of my favorite parts was researching for her father’s parents. When I was working on the first book, I learned about differences between Japanese Americans who had lived in the continental United States and those that had lived in Hawaii. Living in Seattle, which has a notable Japanese American population, you learn a lot about the Japanese American experience. This is especially true when it comes to learning about how they were treated during World War Two. But in Hawaii, the experience was very different.

My other favorite research was for the villain, Imperial Dynamo. I collaborated with an Italian-born friend of mine who is also a history buff. She introduced me to the Italian Futurist art movement, which later fed into the Fascist Party in Italy. It added a really interesting dimension to the villain.

MZ: Wow it seems like you’ve got a lot of threads running through this book. What do you want people to know about that might pique their interest?

JZ: The core idea I’m playing with in the book is that of family expectations. Both Kensei and her friends have families and legacies that are pushing them in different directions. Aside from the more physical conflicts, a lot of Kensei’s emotional conflict is trying to cope with what her family wants while remaining true to herself.

MZ: I think that’s something we all can relate to.

So you’re Kickstartering some of the costs of publishing this book. Can you talk a little about the decision to go that route? I know I’m always interested in hearing why people choose one option over others.

JZ: I had debated for a while about whether or not to do a Kickstarter for this. Early on I thought I might focus my crowdfunding efforts through Patreon. But it seems like Patreon seems to work best only if you already have a sizable fan base. It also doesn’t work as well if you are mostly doing large projects. And the money it brings in mostly supports my other baby, Mad Scientist Journal.

Kickstarter has the advantage of helping make the project more visible to people. It also gives me the chance to offer some fun things to backers that I don’t have much excuse to on other occasions. So I’ve gotten to commission stickers and patches for backers. If it does really well, then it gives me the opportunity to create something a bit more robust. One of my current stretch goals is a limited hardcover edition of the book, which I would have trouble justifying under normal circumstances.

MZ: The stickers are ADORABLE!

JZ: Thank you! We are really happy with the artist we found. She’s been great to work with.

MZ: I am a sticker hoarder so stickers are always an amazing perk for me. 🙂 I recently bought an RV I’m using as a writing office, and I’m pondering what stickers to stick on it right now.

JZ: Good to know. When we came up with some of this, there’s always the worry that what sounds awesome to us might not sound awesome to other people. I’m glad the stickers are a winning point.

MZ: I hope the KS goes bananas and maybe next book you’ll have a Cleopatra Thunder sticker 😀

JZ: One of the stretch goals is to have more characters for the stickers. We could see about working in Cleopatra Thunder.

MZ: *giggles evilly* So what else are you working on these days? I know this book and getting the KS set up have eaten up a lot of your time, but you’re a person of many hats and many projects.

JZ: We’ve been working on the anthology we Kickstarted earlier this year, Selfies from the End of the World. I just sent out the ebook proofs to the contributors to have some extra eyes on it. I’ve been doing a lot of research for an overly ambitious series of YA books I want to do beyond Kensei. Mad Scientist Journal is always on my plate. And I’m getting ready to run some games later this year at a local convention.

MZ: Oh cool, what convention?

JZ: AmberCon Northwest, down in Troutdale, Oregon. Four days of roleplaying games in the middle of a winery/brewery/distillery/resort/spa.

MZ: Oh wow. I always thought that was somewhere in Washington for some reason. That sounds fabulous.

JZ: It is. I’ve been going every year since 1999. It’s a small and intimate convention, and just a ton of fun.

MZ: Are you going to make it to WorldCon or is your schedule just too full up?

JZ: Our schedule is sadly too full up and our vacation time is spread too thin.

MZ: Yeah, it’s always a balancing act. I had to cut out a bunch of other cons this year to go. Is there anything we didn’t touch on that you’d like to talk about?

JZ: Well, I could babble forever about things I learned during my research. But in terms of things people would be interested in, I’m offering the ebook for my first book for free through the Kickstarter. There’s a link [edit: THIS LINK] where you can download the files right there. You don’t have to pledge a token amount or use a coupon code or anything. I feel really passionate about the work I’ve done developing Kensei, and this is a low commitment chance to see if you like her story before committing money to the cause.

MZ: That’s really smart. I somehow missed that reading over the KS. Well, I should probably run and get something to eat. But it was great talking to you and break a leg (preferably someone villainous) on the Kickstarter!

JZ: Likewise, and thank you for taking the time to talk!

Conversations Between Writers


Keffy R. M. Kehrli

Keffy is one of my most favorite people in the world. He’s brilliant, kind, funny, and clones things in labs. He’s also a speculative fiction writer and is currently fundraising GlitterShip an LGBTQ SF&F fiction podcast. You can find out more about Keffy at and follow him on Twitter. You can support GlitterShip at Kickstarter, check out the website, or follow them on Twitter.

Minerva Zimmerman: How are you doing? I missed you at Rainforest this year!

Keffy Kehrli: I’m doing ok. Things have been kind of up and down for the past few months, though.

MZ: It seems like you’ve got a bit of a bidding war going as far as grad school positions. You’ve been on the road more than home recently.

KK: Well, bidding war is kind of inaccurate, but I do have more than one acceptance, so I’m going to have to disappoint at least one school when I make my final decision. Everyone has an April 15 deadline for that, though, so I should know by some time next week where I’m headed in August.

MZ: That’s still pretty cool. Scary. Exciting. But different.

KK: Not *too* different. I’ve been working in a lab for the past five years, so I suspect that the PhD programs will be fairly similar to what I’ve been doing. Research most of the day with occasional classes.

MZ: I’m jealous though. I feel a bit like I missed out on grad school. I’d really like to do more research and analysis work, but it feels like I’m pretty settled at this point.

KK: If you could go, what degree would you go for?

MZ: Cultural Anthropology focusing on Religion in the United States, pretty much an extension of my BA focus.

KK: Cool!

MZ: Kind of a weird focus, but I find it interesting.

Lots of revival culture, conservative politics, superstitions, magic, you name it.

It’s pretty weird, because doing field research in the rural area where I live would be pretty much perfect… but there’s no way to do it and still live here afterward.

Even if I used pseudonyms for everyone I’d have to include enough personal information about them that anyone who actually lives here would be able to figure out identities.

KK: Eep

MZ: So, I content myself with working at the museum and writing fiction. It works out better. Less torches and pitchforks.

Can you tell me about any of the potential projects you’d be going into with grad school?

KK: I don’t really know exactly, yet. I want to focus on genomics, and I’m really interested in bioinformatics and/or non-coding DNA/RNA, but the exact projects will depend on which advisor I end up with. Luckily, most schools have “lab rotations” for PhD programs (at least in the biological sciences or genetics), so I should be able to try out working in a lab or three before I make my “final” decision. Then you’re pretty much set once you decide who you want to work with until the PhD is done.

MZ: yeah, personalities of the people you’ll be working with are important to feel out. I am pretty ignorant of a lot of the research in those fields. I’ve been interested in the nanobot cells that are delivering medicines and such. Also a little bit of some of the stem cell advancements, but other than that I know I’m terribly ignorant of some really amazing science. What’s caught your attention and perhaps your imagination as a writer?

KK: What’s funny for me is that my science work doesn’t really drive my science fiction much at all. I feel like the more I learn, the more I realize why most of my science fictional ideas are kind of ridiculous.

I’m interested in the “non-coding” DNA because most of the human genome doesn’t code for proteins at all – we have about the same number of protein genes as nematodes but are way more complex organisms. (Nematodes have about a thousand cells in their bodies, total)

So a lot of what makes us different has to do with when and where our genes turn on or off. Some of that is regulated by the “non-coding” parts of the DNA.

MZ: Oooo.

More the coding than the building blocks?

KK: Some of it is also regulated by “epigenetic markers” which are like little chemical chunks that attach to DNA or the proteins associated with DNA.

MZ: Which we might be able to trigger to treat certain conditions or symptoms?

KK: Maybe?

Shhh, don’t tell anyone but I’m more interested in how things work than curing diseases >_>

MZ: 😀

KK: I know I’m supposed to be all “YES I WILL CURE EVERY CANCER” but I’m more interested in “what does that button do?”

There is a ton of research devoted to the question you asked, though.

MZ: You need the curiosity to find anything out

KK: If you look up, like, “personal medicine” or “personal genomics” and stuff like that.

MZ: and it sure seems like the body has a whole heck of a lot of “panic buttons” that get pushed randomly like a toddler in a space capsule

KK: Living things are kind of weird

I mean, my BS degree was in physics. So I started off in science doing the whole, “Ok, assume that everything is a point in space, and now do some math.”

MZ: Remind me not to play you at pool for money.

KK: The more I learn about what happens in cells, even bacteria and archaea, the more I’m surprised anything is even alive.

I’m terrible at pool. But I confuse people by playing ambidextrously … uh…

oh! living things and panic buttons, yes.

So, part of the reason that living cells are so complicated is that things go wrong. I mean, constantly.

Or things just break down. Most proteins and cells & etc have some sort of “planned obsolescence.”

Plus, living things are always in flux from generation to generation — from mutations, gene shuffling, sexual reproduction, you name it.

MZ: Yeah that’s the “hey if we can turn this off, we can all not age” thing about cells.

KK: The problem with that is that’s basically how you get cancer.

MZ: Right. Or prions

KK: Prions creep me out. They’re basically just misfolded proteins, and then other proteins get misfolded the same way, and parts break off and “infect” the other proteins.

MZ: It’s like Ice-nine from Vonnegut

KK: I haven’t read that >_>

MZ: but inside everyone’s bodies

it’s a molecule that turns everything it touches into itself, basically ((EDITORIAL NOTE: I misremembered the exact use of ice-nine, it solidifies all water including inside living things, I still maintain it is prion-esque))

KK: Oh… well, this isn’t *quite* like that, because the amino acid sequence won’t change. But they kind of bend in the wrong way and get stuck. Protein folding is one of the interesting structural questions in biology. It’s extremely hard to predict how proteins will fold just based on their sequences.

But yeah. Things go wrong in living things, so there are tons of “back up plans”.

MZ: Aaron participates in FoldingAtHome which borrows computing power from idle computers to predict protein folding patterns

KK: Is that a game thing, or just a “we need computing power” thing?

MZ: like, uh what’s those guys looking for Alien Life


MZ: Yeah, it’s a program like that, you run on your computer when you’re not using it.

KK: Oh, that’s pretty cool.

MZ: and you get points for so many cycles or whatever to plump out your nerd cred

KK: There are actually a lot of “help science at home” things that I’ve been noticing.

Like, there’s Galaxy Zoo, where they train you to look at pictures of galaxies and then help classify them into types of galaxies.

MZ: Ooo neat! Speaking of galaxies… we should probably talk about GlitterShip

So you’re Kickstarting a really awesome podcast. Can you talk a little about what it is and why you’re doing this? I know you’ve been talking about doing this for awhile so I’m excited about it.

KK: GlitterShip came out of my desire to make an ongoing LGBTQ-focused SF/F magazine. I had initially shelved these plans last year when Vitality (an LGBTQ zine) was initially running their own Kickstarter. I think they’re planning on being ongoing and are going to run another fundraiser for their second issue some time soon. I’ve also wanted to do a podcast for a while but could never think of a good topic. I figure that after watching the nonsense I tweet constantly, there’s unlikely to be anyone interested in listening to me ramble for an hour a week or month or whatever. But then I decided, hey, why not combine the two.

Although I think it will be great for people who write LGBTQ SF/F to have another place to send their reprints, I’m not really doing it for writers so much as I am for readers. Sometimes when I’m at conventions, I’ll have people ask me for recommendations of places to go for LGBTQ fiction, and I find that it’s hard to know where to point them.

I usually end up saying, “Well, look in the backlist at Clarkesworld or Lightspeed or Apex and you’ll find some.”

MZ: I just started looking into reprint markets myself, and there just aren’t as many as I thought there were.

KK: It depends on the story and what you’re looking for. But, yeah, reprints are usually a bonus, and a lot of them tend to be in one-off anthologies, which are only sometimes open for submissions.

MZ: I’m particularly excited when I find LGBTQ fantasy.

KK: But yeah, I mostly just wanted to make something where those readers could go and access great SF/F stories with queer content without having to scatter around chasing down disparate recommendations.

MZ: That not everything has to be the same old tropes and characters. That fantasy is a big and all-encompassing stage… Maybe that’s just me, but I mean fantasy has DRAGONS and it’s nice to see people realizing that it doesn’t have to just be about cis straight white people. *writes down idea for story about QUILTBAG dragons*

KK: Well, it’s still possible to use all of the old tropes and just genderflip a character or whatever, but yeah. Some stories have “incidental” diversity, some are entirely about the ways in which the characters are “other” and many are somewhere in between.

Both are fine by me. I get annoyed when I see people try to boil it down to “oh, the ways in which characters are ‘other’ should just be a non-issue constantly” or when they say “the story MUST always be ABOUT the marked state of the characters, because I think it’s better to have a mix. That’s one of the benefits of having an entire zine devoted to LGBTQ stories

I can have one where it’s just a fantasy story, but maybe the dude protagonist has a boyfriend or husband instead. And then another week, a story that’s essentially about what it’s like to be queer in the world of today (or the past, or maybe the future). None of the GlitterShip stories will ever have to stand alone as The gay story in the issue or The lesbian story in the issue.

MZ: 😀

KK: It’s getting to be less of an issue since as far as I know all of the major magazines in SF/F are open to and publish some LGBTQ fiction from time to time.

But I do think that stories can end up with the “token” problem just like characters can.

MZ: Still, there’s a lot of importance in going to somewhere you know is going to have it every time.

KK: Whenever a character is the only queer character or a story is one of a few queer stories, they end up having to shoulder more weight, so to speak. They become more of a stand-in for the whole group.

Yeah, I also think it will be nice for readers who are specifically looking for this stuff that they know they’ll get it from GlitterShip. Even if that’s just the few people who have asked me about it when I’m on panels at cons.

MZ: I know several years ago I came to the realization I most often wrote what I had read the most of, which was cis straight white male POV.

Which, is kind of super weird to realize since I am not that myself.

KK: That’s an issue for a lot of writers.

MZ: but it took a conscious effort for me to decide that my characters and my worlds needed to be AT LEAST as diverse as my own life and the people in it.

KK: I think it happens for the same reason that early fiction tends to lean fairly heavily on tropes.

When people are just working out how to write their own stories, they unconsciously pick one or two things that they’re going to focus on, and just take the rest for granted.

And unfortunately, due to the way that straight, white, cis male stories are the “default” a lot of writers will write about those characters without realizing that they’re doing that.

MZ: It’s part of the reason I decided to study Anthropology, I wanted to stop taking systems of culture for granted and pick apart a lot of my own assumptions about myself. I wanted to find out where all the buttons were 😀

Also, I used a lot of British spellings in my writing originally

KK: I used primarily British spellings when I was 16. One of my early pretentious things. So embarrassing.

MZ: at least I don’t randomly affect a British accent anymore…

gah, teenage years are so embarrassing, and not even for the normal reasons…

Ack we got off track again. Where can people submit stories and how can they support GlitterShip?

KK: People can submit stories to GlitterShip by sending them to the email address in our submission guidelines:

Right now, I’m only open to reprints between 100 and 6000 words long. By “reprint” I just mean that it’s been previously published … anywhere. It doesn’t have to be a “pro paying” market or anything.

To support GlitterShip, check out the Kickstarter campaign at which will end sometime during the day on April 8th. The backer rewards include a collected ebook of all the stories that come out in the first year, and some of the higher tiers will involve me knitting scarves and such for people.

Right now we’re at about $3,300, which means that we’re beyond fully funded and are less than $300 from the next stretch goal, which is 4 episodes a month instead of 2.

If the Kickstarter manages to hit $6000 by the end of the campaign, GlitterShip will also open to original, unpublished fiction. 🙂


I want you to make it, not just make it, but blast right on past that goal. I can’t wait to have you talking in my car to me as I drive to work.

KK: Thank you. 🙂


Conversations Between Writers (and other Creative People)


Today I’m talking with Stephen Hood Co-founder of Storium. For those unfamiliar, Storium is a sort of role playing storytelling platform, part game, part fiction writing. If that sounds at all interesting to you I strongly recommend you check it out at and you can follow Stephen on Twitter.

Minerva Zimmerman: So you just got back from GDC what, a few days ago?

Stephen Hood: Yes, it wrapped-up on Friday. (Although for me, “back” just means a train ride to San Jose.)

MZ: I just returned from Rainforest Writers Retreat last night where I finished edits on a project. So while I’m not GDC tired, I’m still trying to remember what way “up” is 🙂 Was this your first GDC?

SH:  It was! I’ve loved games all my life and have considered going for years, but it never seemed to make sense because I wasn’t working in the industry. Now I am, or at least that’s the rumor…

MZ: I love Storium. I’m a little at a loss to describe it to people sometimes though. How did you describe it for the GDC crowd?

SH: It’s definitely a bit hard to classify, which has always been both our secret weapon and our curse. Generally, I tell people that “Storium turns creative writing into a multiplayer online game.” That’s usually enough to either catch their interest and set the gears turning, or send them into full-on glazed-over mode. And, you know, it’s really best for everyone that we get to that fork in the conversational road as quickly as possible, heh.

MZ: That’s true, either that interests you or it doesn’t. I admit I’m getting impatient for Storium to open up to general players because I have people I want to indoctrinate in a few on-going stories.

SH: I’m more than a little impatient for that, too! We’re working the code hamsters as quickly as OSHA will allow…

BTW, as an existing player you can invite anyone you like. You just start a game and invite them using their email address.

MZ: Ooo hmmm. I might have to do that. I have several stories that have stalled out that could probably be jumpstarted with new blood.

SH: Players can also now hand-off their characters to someone else, which is a great way to keep things moving if someone has lost interest or doesn’t have time to play…

MZ: It’s interesting because it’s a game, but it’s also a storytelling platform but with nearly instantaneous repercussions and feedback. So as someone who writes otherwise, it’s interesting to see when I do and don’t want to work on Storium scenes, because it is Fun Writing and not Work Writing.

SH: I’m glad you think of it as “fun writing!” That’s the goal, for sure. We’re using the context of gaming to lower people’s inhibitions, raise their confidence, and get them to write. Not to write something perfect, but just to write. Everything that happens in Storium is about helping people express themselves through play, and to keep doing it.

MZ: I used to have other writers that we’d do email Round Robin stories, where someone would start a story and then email it on to the next person who would continue it and pass it back. It was always an exercise in how much of a problem you could give the other person without actually killing the story. Sometimes Storium feels like that. Sometimes you are just feeding off the collaborative process and you’ll lose a whole day writing scenes.

SH: Ha, storytelling deathmatch! I get what you mean. The big question, though, is what is the goal: is it to pit your wits against another writer, or is it to actually tell the story? I think there’s a point where those become incompatible. In Storium we’re really trying to focus on the collaboration, on the story itself, and so we purposely don’t have a lot of competitive components to the game. Some folks don’t like that. They want mechanics that encourage competition. They even call it “PvP,” which I find fascinating and/or a little disturbing. “Your subplot has died. Resurrect, or return to the story graveyard?”

MZ: I think there’s a place for both, but yes, combative writing does become incompatible with telling a shared story. but not all disagreements about the story between writers are combative either. I know my best collaborations have been the ones where we rubbed up against each other and felt very passionately about our ideas. The ones where a collaborator and I always agreed were weaker, and often boring not only from the creation side of things but for the reader. I remember a collaborator and I signed things for each other after finishing a project and when we traded back we laughed. We’d written the exact same inscription, “Thank you for not agreeing with me.”

SH: Absolutely. Friction is important in so many things. Even outside of writing. Much of Storium evolved out of a good deal of friction within our team around design philosophy, goals, and so forth. It would have turned out much weaker without that conflict. I think it’s just a question of what you incentivize for players/writers. If the game itself is structured around competition, I fear that you end up incentivizing players to undercut each other. But the alternative shouldn’t be a conflict-free environment, for sure.

MZ: Do you think having a lack of defined incentive for players inside the greater Storium system outside each individual story is a feature or something that you struggle with? Or do you even agree that’s the case?

SH: Not sure I follow you?

MZ: So in a dungeon crawl, you’re collecting gold and loot. In Storium you’re telling a story through an individual character’s actions. However, outside of each individual story is there incentive for players within Storium?

SH: Ah, ok, I see. Yeah, I guess we don’t really think of it that way. I mean, you could certainly feel like you’re grinding XP in the form of words written, games completed, characters played, etc. That’s very real progress and personal incentive, in a certain sense. We don’t really play that up yet in the UI, but we’re thinking about it. And as you play you are certainly building some manner of reputation within the community — another thing that will be more important in the future. But frankly we spend more time right now thinking about how to help players have that first, successful, satisfying storytelling experience more than we worry about the longer-term grind. At least so far…

MZ: 🙂 I’m curious how you ended up creating Storium. I’m very glad you did, because I’m geographically distant from everyone I want to share such stories with and this allows me to do this. I’m just curious how your own path ended up here

SH: That right there was one of the original inspirations. I missed playing tabletop games with my old high school friends, who had scattered to the corners of the Earth, had families, lived in different timezones, etc. I missed the creative outlet and wanted to recapture it somehow. So I built a simple prototype and unleashed it on my friends. I knew there was no way we would be able to play at the same time, so it needed to be text-based and asynchronous. It needed to not depend on a certain order of taking turns, since that would enable any single player to hold up the whole thing. And I wanted it to have just enough of that tabletop feel to trigger the muscle memory without bogging us down in complex rules that would slow down play.

That prototype was fun but had a number of problems. I kept coming back to it, though. Kept working on it, evolving it. Over time I began to realize that what was really interesting here was the writing — the sheer creative freedom that it was making possible. And that the “rules,” such as they were, were really about making that writing possible, and fun. I started building a team of allies, people who would help me broaden my perspective by adding expertise to the mix in areas like game design, writing, engineering. Will Hindmarch was an early ally and advisor, and he had a huge impact on our thinking and on the design of Storium. Getting Will involved was a major turning point. Will totally got that Storium was sitting at the intersection of fiction and gaming, and what that could mean. I think he sits at that intersection, himself.

MZ: Storium really is quite flexible I think you could potentially do an actual collaboration through it if you set up the story right er, I mean a collaboration aimed for publication obviously every Storium is a collaboration and I like that you can invite people to follow a given Storium like a fictional serial

SH: Heh, I have a feeling that the first Storium novella or novel is not far away. It’s not clear yet how you would take a Storium story and publish it. What does that even look like? Is it a cross between a screenplay and a blog post? Or it could just be that the game serves as source material, and the author or authors adapt it to a more traditional form. Sort of like how Peter Adkison’s “The Devil Walks In Salem” is a film adapted from a Fiasco play session.

However it turns out, it’s going to be interesting…

MZ: I’m going to guess a mixture pulled together with pictures, you’d need to pull something from outside to draw things together and a visual element seems like a reasonable bet

SH: A key question for me is: do the cards have relevance to the finished story, or just as components of play? Like, once you extract the narrative from the context of Storium, do you need to know what cards inspired each scene and move, or does the written fiction capture it all. I’m honestly not sure what the answer is, and that’s exciting.

MZ: Or maybe it’s going to be a card game with stories. It’s hard to know.

So I am insanely curious

SH: Uh oh

MZ: This was your first GDC, what did you think? What surprised you about interacting with gaming developers and other professionals? How did people react to Storium?

SH: It was a fascinating experience. I’m of two minds. On the one hand, I had a fantastic time meeting other professionals. I gave one of the opening talks, as part of the Narrative Summit, and I was sort of stunned by the response. I’ve given a number of talks over the years but I’ve never had so many people show up for Q&A, or even track me down even days later. I wouldn’t claim it was because I was unusually awesome or anything; I think it was more a function of the people in attendance, and their interest level. These are people who love games, who love making games, who love thinking about games. They are hungry for ideas. Sadly, you don’t feel that as much in many other industry conferences. So that part was great.

On the other hand, as I looked at the sessions and the expo floor, I didn’t really see a place where Storium obviously fit in. Let’s just say our polygon count is too low. What we’re doing is sort of alien to most of the people and companies in attendance. That doesn’t phase me at all; rather, it’s motivating and exciting. But it did make the week slightly surreal. Happily, whenever I had the chance to explain Storium to people, the responses were almost universally positive. People got that it was different from everything around them, which was fun.

MZ: I think that’s a feature and a strength of Storium, but yeah, it must have been a little surreal sometimes. like “I’m just a little toy tugboat I shouldn’t be on the big ocean!”

SH: After the third or fourth pitch for 3D rendering farms or visual asset management systems, I started proactively telling people, “sorry, my game is about words.” Heh.

MZ: HA! That’s better than I did in ’98 I just started telling people we were using a version of Direct X that didn’t exist yet, because I was kind of a jerk

SH: DirectZ!

MZ: I think DirectX 4 had just been announced and I was saying we were using a beta of 5

SH: You are history’s greatest monster.

MZ: I was only saying this when I wanted to shut someone down who was bugging me… but yeah, kind of a jerk. I had the added bonus of being a young woman, so it worked better for me than it would have for other people. It just short circuited about 4 lines of thought in whoever was trying to impress me with their “technical specs” But personally, I don’t think high tech is necessarily the future of games. I mean it will always be a place where high tech gets some testing… but as for the core of gaming I think will be more about experience

SH: A lot of my GDC talk was about questioning our reliance on simulation in our video games. It’s what we put most of the computing power into. And yet the more we do that, the less flexibility we have as storytellers. I don’t see that going away, but I do hope we see more games in the future that rely on it less.

MZ: There’s already been some pushback on very high-tech games that are basically on a rail and more of a movie experience than a player experience.

They’re still neat. But are they really “games”?

SH: Hey, I still love Rebel Assault.

I think there’s a place for just about everything in this world. But we need more variety than we’re getting these days from the major studios, IMO.

MZ: Yes, exactly. Maybe a better way for labeling products so people can find the things that they love, but not less of anything. I feel conflicted about saying “labeling” though I hate labels, and don’t really like using them… but I think a lot of anger and disappointment is caused by people going into something thinking it is one thing and finding it is something they know they already dislike.

SH: I hear you. It’s an old problem, and not just in games. I used to work on, so I’m partial to community tagging as a possible solution. But even that has downsides.

MZ: But then there’s the argument about shouldn’t you be challenging people? Shouldn’t you make them take a bite of pancakes even if they say they hate them? I’m not sure there’s a solution… but I think the discussion is important. Is there anything on your mind either out of GDC or anything else you want to talk about?

SH: I was pretty pleased to see that the GG crowd seemed to find little purchase at GDC. Quite the contrary, in fact. I got the sense that most people who are actually in the industry find the whole thing abhorrent.

MZ: Yeah, I have to say that’s been largely true for as long as I’ve known any designers and others working professionally in the industry. It isn’t the makers of games who are purposefully creating that kind of culture.

SH: I’m not sure they’re entirely excused from it. The games we choose to make have an impact on the audience. But yeah, I don’t think it’s game makers who are at the heart of this particular movement. (Although I’m sure there are individuals who are, sadly.)

MZ: Yeah, I don’t excuse them entirely. I think some things that weren’t thought about absolutely helped create it, I just don’t think anyone went “HEY YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GREAT?!”

SH: Heh, indeed.

MZ: it’s more the, “Well, we didn’t mean for that to happen and it really isn’t our FAULT” stuff that has to change. We should probably wrap this up. Any last thoughts?

SH: I don’t think so? This was a lot of fun. Thanks for the great questions and conversation. It’s nice to make your acquaintance. thanks for interviewing me!

MZ: I like to say Conversation, because I don’t claim Journalistic integrity 🙂

SH: heh fair enough

MZ: I’m biased but I want to share cool conversations with creative people

SH: that’s a worthy goal, thanks for including me in that definition

MZ: Hey, I’ve used Storium and I know how much creativity it takes to make something that works that well

SH: thanks for saying so, and thanks for playing!

Talk With Me

Do you want to have a Conversation with me? I’m currently looking to schedule Conversations for the next couple months. I’m looking to talk to wordsmiths of all kinds. If you work with words and/or writers in some capacity, I want to talk to you. To date, twenty-seven different people have had Conversations here and I’m in the midst of scheduling several others. Conversations take around an hour and are conducted via the Instant Messenger platform of your choice (provided I either already have it or can get it to work. There are no particular questions and I am about the furthest thing from a journalist there is. My goal is to show the connections and transmission of ideas as they actually happen between people. I know I once thought there was some kind of clique inner-circle sort of thing going on with writing and really it’s more that if you don’t quit, you make connections with people over shared interests and eventually those connections turn into opportunities… or baked goods. Conversations Between Writers is not meant to be primarily a promotion venue. It can happen as Conversations are about all kinds of things, and sometimes we writers are more likely to come out of our shells a bit more when we’re in a promotion sort of mind. My personal goal is to help myself feel less alone (and hopefully others) by making these Conversations public. So please, if you want to talk about interesting things that may or may not have to do directly with writing in some way, please sign up or nominate someone you think might need a little nudge. You can always hit me up on Twitter, email me, or use the form here:

Conversations Between Writers

Tracy Barnett

Tracy Barnett

Tracy is the author of the novel Iron Edda: Sveidsdottir, writer/designer of the RPGs such as School Daze, and Iron Edda: War of Metal and Bone. He is one of the minds behind Exploding Rogue Studios. You can follow him on Twitter as @TheOtherTracy.

MZ: Hey, how’s it going? Are you in the frozen wastelands or somewhere warmer?

Tracy Barnett: It just got pretty frozen here in Ohio. We had a little, uh, warm snap, I guess? But we’re back to mid-20s with windchill. Unfun.

MZ: Hopefully a bit less snow than New England though

TB:  Yeah, we’ve gotten nowhere near that level of snowfall.

MZ: I can’t even comprehend that much snow. I’ve always lived on the West Coast, and you don’t have to shovel rain.

TB:  I was born here in Ohio, and I have to have some snow in the winter, or things just don’t feel right to me. I need the seasonal change. It signals transition, and that’s important to me.

MZ: Yeah we’ve sort of… skipped? winter this year. It’s weird. There are geese flying north, frogs singing at night, and flowers blooming. In February!

TB:  I’ve had winters like that. We’re all still expecting a big freeze and accompanying snow. Dunno if it’ll hit, though.

MZ: Yeah I keep expecting something to hit here and kill off everything that has woken up early.

You’re a bit of a Jack of all Writing, you’ve got a huge amount of projects going. What is most on your mind right now?

TB:  Heh, I guess that depends on the day. I’m getting close to wrapping up the writing for Karthun (current RPG project). I’ve also got a novel in the works, and I’m at the revision stage, to get to the second draft. And there’s a weird thing where even though I want to finish those things, I also want the energy and juice of working on a new idea. Plus, I do regular writing for my Patreon… so yeah. Depends on the day.

MZ: That new idea energy is almost like a drug for me.

TB:  It so is. I get it when I go to conventions, but I get to use to to help me get current projects done. But the thrill of getting a new idea and seeing it through the first draft.. it’s amazing.

Revisions are my anti-drug.

MZ: I love science panels for getting new ideas. I read as much science news as I can get my hands on. Yeah, I’m staring down a several month spell of revisions. I’m looking forward to being done with them, but not doing them 🙂

TB:  Yeah. I’ve come to accept that revisions are a necessary part of writing. No draft is going to spring fully formed from my forehead. I’m hoping to start to learn to enjoy that part of the process, too.

MZ: Me too. I keep hoping anyway. I have a question I’ve meant to ask you

TB:  Sure!

MZ: what’s the story behind Exploding Rogue as a name? It is very evocative in the best way, but I was wondering if there’s a specific incident behind it?

TB:  We wanted to try and come up with a name we could brand and get behind. The name popped into my head one day and I floated it past Brian. He dug it, and drew some concepts for logos. The more we saw it, the more we liked it. Plus, it’s hell of fun to tweet as the Exploding Rogue. He’s the worst rogue ever.

MZ: I mean, who hasn’t had a party where there was a rogue explosion at some point?

TB:  Truth! I wish there was a more compelling story behind it, but we really just needed to find something we could both get behind.

MZ: …it is usually best to stand behind the rogue

TB:  Yeah, the rogue’s either gonna disable the trap or get turned to paste. But then you need to get another rogue.

MZ: also they have a difficulty modifier on backstabbing people behind them

TB:  Unless the rogue is really just projecting an illusion of themselves…Yeah, that’s getting too complicated.

MZ: unless they’ve taken the lesser known talent, “frontstabbing”

Now, personally I find RPG writing and fiction writing to be very different. How does it shake out for you?

TB:  They’re extremely different, but I think that writing RPGs in a conversational tone makes them more similar. RPGs give the framework for stories that groups will tell. You want to give information and hooks for a group to use.

MZ: I think for me, it’s that for fiction I’m very much a pantser up to a point, and you just can’t do that for RPG stuff. You have to plan it out more ahead of time.

TB:  For fiction, you’re in charge of the whole story, tip to tail. For me, it’s almost like I set up the RPG hooks, then write the adventure group that is the cast of characters. For RPGs, I have to think about what I’d like to see in a product I’d pick up from a store, how I’d want to use it. Then I have to deliver that to the highest level I can. And yeah, for fiction, I’m a pantser. No way I could outline a novel ahead of writing it. Not yet, anyway.

MZ: Yeah, thinking of it like a product is just difficult for my brain. It helps more if I’m thinking of someone else’s RPG world. I tend to outline at the 50% or 2/3rd mark by outlining what I’ve already done and seeing what the shape is it helps overcome the muddle in the middle, but outlining to start with tends to screw me up and kills that new project energy

TB:  Yep. I’m only on my second-ever novel, so it’s still new to me. I can tell you that my WIP has a much more fully formed shape in my mind. I have a sense of where I want it to go, and the revisions will help get me there. Like a mental outline.

MZ: I’m writing my.. 6th? Depending on how you count stuff. And this is the first one that isn’t overly long.

TB:  What’s the wordcount on not overly long?

MZ: First draft is looking like 60k

TB:  My first draft of my WIP hit 65k. Hoping for 75k by the end.

MZ: maybe 70k, depending. but my first couple novels were 120-160k 😛

TB:  Yeeahhh! That’s way long for me.

MZ: …which is also why they aren’t published. I couldn’t write clean enough.

TB:  I’m pretty sure that my first novel, Sveidsdottir, should have been longer. But it was near-torturous to write.

MZ: though it turns out you can take a 140k manuscript that was written in 3 acts and cut and expand to make it 3 novels. So, I’m learning. Why torturous?

TB:  1: First novel, and no idea what I was doing. 2: Unintentionally really wrote what I knew. Meaning, the protagonist has a lot of my worst qualities, her wife has a lot of qualities of my ex-wife, and I predicted my divorce through the plot arc of the novel.

MZ: Yowch. Brains man… they sneak up on you in fiction.

TB:  Right? Except my divorce didn’t prompt me to… eh, I’ll save the spoilers.

MZ: Heheheh. Your last few years have been super full of life, both good and bad.

TB:  No kidding. That’s one thing I wouldn’t want to change. There have been parts that have sucked all the butts, but “full of life” is a really good description.

MZ: Yeah, I don’t want to change my past. It made me who I am, and what I’m capable of today.

TB:  That’s seen by some as a trite statement, and it can be difficult to see that when in the middle of it, but it’s true.

MZ: It does seem like a trite statement when you’re currently bemoaning something, but once you can see how it shakes out and all the threads of your life it changed… I guess I see some of the other things I could have done that are much more damaging

TB:  The last part of that statement makes me smile. “I definitely could have fucked up worse,” when said in a positive manner, is a powerful statement.

MZ: Well, for example, my very first relationship was everything that storybooks say you should want. And… also controlling, emotionally needy, and a host of other things. If I hadn’t been in that relationship as early in my life as I was, I would have let myself get into similar situations when I wasn’t as equipped to leave them.

TB:  Yeah, definitely. It just took me… I dunno, six, seven relationships to get to that point? Still. Learning is learning. And that’s worthwhile.

MZ: I try to tell young friends and relatives that part of dating is finding out what you can’t deal with, and making the choice not to deal with it.

TB:  Yeah. 34 year-old me sees that. 17 year-old me wanted to find THE ONE so badly it hurt. And it did.

MZ: Yep. I thought I’d be one and done. But once my one was very much not The One, it took a lot of pressure off.

TB:  Oddly, there are parallels to writing there. Or maybe not oddly.

MZ: There are. You put a lot of pressure on yourself the way you did it, (editorial note: Kickstarting a first novel) but I think you probably condensed a lot of learning into it.

TB:  Now that I’ve gotten my first novel finished and published, I know a lot more about what I want out of my writing.

MZ: I kind of wish I’d given myself a bit more pressure at first. My first novel took 10 years (probably part of why it was so overly long) and then I realized I wasn’t good enough to do it right.

TB:  And yeah, the hubris of “I can totally do this” carried me for a while. And I made it through.

Still, that’s definitely a learning experience you had.

MZ: You’d also produced many finished RPG products before taking on a novel too, so you knew you could push through and finish. I splashed around in the “I never finish anything” for way too long

TB:  That’s a true thing. Finishing is one of the most important first lessons to learn.

MZ: I wish I’d written as many endings as I’ve written beginnings 🙂 I’d probably be better at plotting

What do you wish you were better at?

TB:  Plotting and outlining. For all that I said I like the idea of pantsing, I feel like I could write stories that are better if I could plan better. It’s hard to get a sense of where you are and how well you’re doing if you can’t keep a sense of the story.

MZ: I will admit that someone pointing out that the scene selection screen of a DVD is basically a plot outline helped my brain.

TB:  That’s definitely a good point.

MZ: so now when I outline I try to kind of make that screen for my own use

TB:  I’ll have to give that a shot.

MZ: not imagining it as a movie so much as just looking at it as a collection of scenes with one still image

TB:  Yeah. “This shot encapsulates the scene” is good thinking, I, uh, think.

MZ: I’m a very visual thinker, so it helps more than a spreadsheet, though the spreadsheet is good for editing

TB:  Yeah, I used a spreadsheet to outline Sveidsdottir. Not sure I knew how to apply it properly, though. So many things to learn.

MZ: it depends what you’re doing. When I switch POV it’s nice to know who the POV of each scene is, if it is a talking scene, action scene, word count…. but it doesn’t help for outlining per say Is there anything in particular burning up your brain or that you want to make sure we talk about?

TB:  The thing I want the most right now is to be a full-time writer. I know it’s going to take a while, and take a lot of different sources of income, but damn do I want it.

MZ: Do you have lots of thinky thoughts about diversifying income streams and markets and all that too?

TB:  SO MANY THINKY THOUGHTS I make RPGs via Kickstarter, do a leetle bit of freelance RPG and fiction work, I have a Patreon for fiction and such, and I want to sell a novel to a traditional publisher. And I have a day job. I want that last part to not be the case. I don’t make enough annually that a novel advance is a small thing, so that’s what I’m hoping swings things closer to Fulltimewriterville.

MZ: I like my day job, but I absolutely need a financially stable partner to make both my writing and day job possible.

TB:  It’s not a silver bullet, but it’ll get me closer.

MZ: Yeah. I’m conflicted about full-time writing. Mostly because I’m one of those people that does better with a schedule and can’t be assed to enforce it on myself.

TB:  I’m conflicted about the viability, financially, but I’m so sure of it personally.

MZ: It financially seems so feast and famine.

TB:  That’s why I’d need to keep things diversified. And, if I got an advance, I’d have to set myself a monthly income. And keep a schedule for writing. Because yeah, day jobs provide structure. There’s actually a place near where I live that’s a shared workspace.

MZ: and advances have gotten so much smaller, which is good for earning out… but still.

TB:  If I were able to write full time, I’d want to head there to work, if possible.


MZ: I live in a relatively cheap rural area, but still $5-7k isn’t going to get you much.

TB:  Right now, that 7k is 1/3 of my yearly salary. Like I said, it’d be a start.

MZ: My thought is to have enough products out there that make a small amount on a consistent basis… the little lumps will make more of a difference.

TB:  Yep. My lovely little lumps.

MZ: My lumps bring all the milkshakes to my tummy /looks vaguely ashamed/ that was terrible

TB:  Terribly funny! Is there anything you wanted to make sure you asked me?

MZ: Not ask so much as make sure I mentioned. I wanted to tell you that I really admire you, not only for what you’ve done for yourself, but in how you’re always out there supporting others and cheering people on. It makes a big difference to a lot of people, and you should know that.

TB:  That’s really flattering. Thank you! Damn, now I’m blushing.

MZ: 😀 Mission accomplished

Conversations Between Writers

Selfies Art plus textMad Scientist Journal is edited by Jeremy Zimmerman and Dawn Vogel. You can read new fiction there every Monday and follow them on Twitter for news.  They are currently Kickstarting the anthology SELFIES FROM THE END OF THE WORLD. I messaged Dawn and she was able to fit in a Conversation with me about it.


Minerva Zimmerman: I haven’t talked to you in forever!

Dawn Vogel: Yeah, it has been a long time!

MZ: I think the last time was at the reading for By Faerie Light? Maybe?

DV: I’m not sure I went to that one. I know I saw you at Ryan and Lily’s wedding, but you were busy that day. 🙂

MZ: A little 🙂 It turns out being a Human of Honor is a little work

DV: But you did a fantastic job. I loved the titles they used for everyone.

MZ: I appreciated the gender neutral titles and lack of delineating marital status.

DV: Exactly.

MZ: I don’t think anyone ever wakes up and is like “You know what I’d like to be called at some point? Matron.” I mean it bothered me enough as a title in World of Warcraft that I’d never use it.

DV: Yeah.

MZ: At least there isn’t a crowdsourcing platform called Matreon

DV: Wow, yeah, that would be atrocious!

MZ: Well, speaking of crowdfunding… (ooo my transistions are so sneaky) Mad Scientists Journal is running a KS campaign right now. Can you talk a little about what MSJ is and what the campaign is for?

DV: So Mad Scientist Journal started out as Jeremy’s crazy idea. He brought me in pretty early on to do the editing, and we’ve been co-editing it since. We publish weekly stories online, all told from a first person perspective of some sort. After about a year and a half, he wanted to do an anthology. That ended up being That Ain’t Right: Historical Accounts of the Miskatonic Valley. We ran a successful Kickstarter for that last February, and the book has been very positively reviewed. We wanted to do another one this year, and came up with Selfies from the End of the World: Historical Accounts of the Apocalypse. The goal of the Kickstarter is to be able to pay the authors for the anthology more than what we normally pay. We fund MSJ out of our own pockets, for the most part, so having crowdfunding is a huge help.

MZ: So, it’s first person accounts of the Apocalypse?

DV: Yep, the apocalypse, or possibly post-apocalypse if it’s one of those apocalypses that doesn’t wipe out humanity.

MZ: Hmmmmmm. If only I had an apocalypse in my wheelhouse I could write about 🙂

DV: We’re hoping to reach our funding goal early, but we should be able to open to submissions by the beginning of March at the latest. And then we’re hoping to get all sorts of apocalypses. And not just the traditional ones, like zombies, weather, and plagues. We’re hoping for some really creative ones!

MZ: Yeah, I do not have an entirely altruistic reasons for you to meet your funding goal. I do really enjoy revisiting destroying the world. I also really enjoy Mad Scientist Journal

DV: Thanks, we’re always glad to hear that people like it! I’m sometimes surprised at how much that little idea has grown and blossomed. I actually had someone I’ve never met, who I was talking to about Norwescon, say “oh, you do Mad Scientist Journal!” Recognized my name. That’s pretty awesome. 🙂

MZ: I think there’s a lot of overlap between writers, readers, and those who have read the more mundane scientific journals. Just speaking for myself, my brain grabs on to the weirdest bits of journal articles so it’s nice to see a publication putting out a fiction publication in this same vein.

It’s just a great jumping off point for a publication.

DV: I do the same thing with random bits of history. I think that’s part of the reason Jeremy knew I’d go for him putting “historical accounts” in the titles of the anthologies.

MZ: I think it also helps people think about jumping into a fully formed world mid-stream, which is a good indicator for good genre fiction.

I think when you’re first starting out as a writer you think about building the world one word at a time, and when you get more experienced you realize you have to indicate that the world existed before the story started and continues even though no one is reading it.

A world has to have history for the present to have context, even in fiction.

DV: Yep. The amount of work you can put into that as a writer can be really staggering.

MZ: and 99% never ends up on the page 🙂 It can be maddening!

DV: Yeah, that too!

MZ: So you’re not just an editor and publisher, you’re also a writer. What have you been up to? Working on anything right now?

DV: I’ve been working on short stories since December. Just finished one, and have three more that I’m trying to get done soon. And I’m working on plotting out a big fantasy novel that I want to write this spring. I’ve got a pretty ambitious schedule lined up for this year.

MZ: Is it just me or does 2015 seem kind of intimidating writing career wise? Like, writing seemed simpler in the past and now things have to be more ambitious.

DV: Yeah, there is a little bit of that. I think I’ve read so many articles about writing that I’m now just in this mode of “WRITE until your hands fall off.” I’m actually making myself get in writing time 5 days a week since the beginning of the year.

MZ: Wow! Is that going well?

DV: It’s better some days than others. 🙂 But it is definitely helping me get things done. Which makes sense, really.

MZ: Yeah, I don’t have a very big daily goal, and I don’t write every day, but I try to average 500 words a day over 30 days. Slow but steady.

DV: That’s the way to do it. I haven’t given myself a word count goal, because I’m often writing one thing and revising something else, or polishing up those last little details on another story. But I sit down each week with what I’m trying to get done, and try to get as much of that accomplished as is actually possible.

Sometimes my dream goals are a bit bigger than reality.

MZ: I think that’s a feature, not a bug. 🙂 If we catch up with our dreams too often it gets weird.

DV: Yeah, but it is nice to check off all of the ticky boxes on a to do list every once in a while. And then it’s on to the next list, for me, at least.

MZ: Oh I am a HUGE ticky box person. I love it. I am getting better at breaking things down in to smaller do-able things

DV: Yep. I have my ticky boxes for the doable stuff, and then my spreadsheets for the big picture. And it’s all color coded because I’m a huge dork like that.

MZ: also colors make stuff prettier to look at which helps when you’re supposed to stare at it a lot. I’m in the process of making an over-arching organization system to my whole life, work, writing, and home. So I’m way big into color coordinating and otherwise making stuff easier for myself right now. It is slow though.

DV: Yeah. It’s nice, though, when you get a good system that works into place. Everything gets SO much easier.

MZ: I intellectually know that’s true… but I totally want to give up and “Internet foooooreverrrr”

DV: I have a LOT of days like that. Juggling work and writing and editing and crafting and cats. Some days I just decide it’s a mental health break. 🙂

MZ: It IS helping my mental health a lot to organize. It’s probably the main thing helping me push forward. It is letting me NOT think about stuff

DV: Yeah, I think that is a really helpful thing.

MZ: Is there anything else you want to talk about?

DV: I was going to ask you what writing projects you’ve got in the works.

MZ: Well, my main project at the moment is a Rural Fantasy novel about a middle aged Norse Chaos Mage who ends up in charge of her small mountain town’s magical protection and preventing the end of the world and she’s not happy about it.

DV: That sounds like fun! I’d love to read it when it’s done!

MZ: I will be looking for Beta Readers in a few months, Gods willing and the creek don’t rise.

DV: I should be available after April!

MZ: Excellent! I will be sure to drop you a line when I get a workable full draft.

Well, let’s make sure we get the link to Mad Scientist Journal and a link to the KS in here, because I’d really like to write a story to submit to this anthology when it funds 🙂

DV: is the link for Mad Scientist Journal. With new stories up every Monday morning.!And the Kickstarter is:

MZ: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to talk to me about this.

DV: Thanks for having me!



Conversations Between Writers


Nathan Crowder

Nathan is directly responsible for my finally knuckling down and submitting stories. Turns out you actually have to do that if you want to get published (weird, I know…). I ran into him at a reading thirteen years or so after we’d both worked the same service job and gamed together. After his reading he mentioned was seeking submissions for an anthology and since I knew he actually gets my wacked out sense of humor, I felt comfortable sending him a story where I destroyed the world with tiny unicorns. And then I kept submitting… and that’s how babby, I mean books get made.

Nathan is a genre writer, small press publisher, and architect of the Cobalt City Universe. You can find out more at his website or follow him on Twitter 



Minerva Zimmerman: How are things?

Nathan Crowder: Good! Feels like the calm between storms, but I’ll take it.

how are things down your way?

MZ: A little drizzly with a side of weird.

NC: Yeah…this weather. It was 60 the last few days. My co-worker thinks it’s the end times.

MZ: It’s been that nice here too, today it finally greyed up today

We got a weather station attached to the house after christmas, so I’ve been linking my house weather to people on the East Coast.

NC: That’s…let’s not gild that lily and just call it “evil.”

MZ: oh yeah. Totally. 😀

NC: As long as we’re on the same page, then.  🙂

MZ: No one was fooled that I was just showing off our spiffy weather station.

NC: I’ll be honest, I see the blizzard on the news and I feel a little cheated.

MZ: I wondered briefly if I could call in, “other people are snowed in” this morning. Somehow I didn’t think my boss would buy it. “I live on a steep hill, weather is worse here… on the opposite side of the country from where the snow actually is.”

NC: no. Most likely, no. How are things at the Museum that is Almost Certainly Haunted?

MZ: It isn’t haunted, it just has boiler heat so it has those old clanky radiators

NC: All museums are haunted. This is known.

MZ: It is pretty gosh darn scary to be there in the dark, by yourself. but not haunted.

NC:I remain skeptical, but you’re the expert on the place. But if I come to visit, I’m totally bringing my pendulum and ghost hunting gear. You working on anything fun these days?

MZ: Oh, I’ve got a couple things going on.   Working on a draft of my madcap Rural Fantasy

NC: You’ve mentioned the Rural Fantasy idea to me before, I think. I love it!

MZ: Yeah, I’m having a lot of fun with it. It’s set up in the mountains near Snoqualmie Pass.

NC: Have you zeroed in on a likely length yet?

MZ: Eh, probably less than 90k it moves pretty quick, but I have a few scenes I need to go back in fill in. What are you working on?

NC: Excellent! Best of luck wrapping it up! I just finished edits on a pulp sci-fi novel I need to get sent out, and deciding if I want to do edits on something else or get back to writing the next epic fantasy novel.

MZ: Ooo, I didn’t know you’d gotten into writing epic fantasy.

NC: Yeah! I have this triptych. The first one is done, called Of Rooks and Ravens. About a young academic forced to flee the destruction of her college and home town who throws her lot in with a crusty tactics professor / probable spy.

MZ: Oh cool! Is it out, or are you shopping it?

NC: I will be shopping it.

NC: The idea is to tell about the fall and rescue of this city from the POV of 3 different groups of heroes. Each has their own part to tell.

MZ: I love that technique of storytelling!

NC: And in a perfect world, the 3 covers will form one complete picture. assuming, of course, that someone publishes it.

MZ: Oooo, well, it sounds like a great project.

NC: I’m excited about it. Early word from beta readers is very positive.

MZ: I wish you good hunting with it.

NC: Many thanks!

MZ: I read your Fringe Candy entry for today, sounds like you’re about doomed with a new specialty candy store.

NC: My one hope for rescue is that their hours seem, at best, random.

MZ: ooo a magic candy store

NC: Absolutely. And the fact that the candy is also mysterious…it’s the kind of shop you’d buy a Djinni lamp in if it were a Harlan Ellison story.

NC: Like, I KNOW candy. A good 80% of the stuff there? Never heard if it. Chances of me getting cursed or selling my soul for rare, Fringe Candy is kind of astronomical right now.

MZ: It might be worth it though…

NC: No doubt!

MZ: What else has been burning up your brain of late? Any new horrors creeping up your spine?

NC: I need to do a few more Fringe Candy posts before I go all Agustus Gloop. Ooo new horrors! My last few horror pieces are also kind of fringe. Like, is it supernatural or is there something else going on? They’re the stories I want to tell, about young women turned into pop culture princesses to be sacrificed to benefit the industry, or a brutal revenge piece about pageant princesses that takes place entirely during a small town parade. Most of my horror lately is informed by horrors I’m seeing in the real world, how we treat each other in this culture, what we value. And I try to exorcise that in my fiction.

MZ: yeah that does seem to be a real problem in the last while

NC: It’s hard to confront. Sometimes hard to read. “Hell is a Parade” might be the meanest story I’ve ever written. And I kind of love it for that.

MZ: Mean stories are weird to write. Like, you feel so much better for writing them… but then people worry about you more. 🙂

NC: Looking forward to reading that at Norwescon Oh yeah. “I’m perfectly normal, folks! It’s just a story!”

MZ: I worry more about people who never write that kind of thing.

NC: same. Bottle it up and you’re bound to go nutty.

MZ: Yeah, horror writers are the nicest people you could ever meet. It’s kind of odd.

NC: we have a great understanding of just how BAD things can go. It recalibrates our expectations.

MZ: I think it makes you a little more optimistic on a weird level. “Well, at least there aren’t earwigs eating my brain.”

NC: yeah. Like “Well, it’s a long line and my boss is a dick, but he’s not exactly wearing anyone’s skin for a mask”

MZ: …no that’s a Thursday only thing. Is there anything you want to make sure we talk about?

NC:The only thing that comes to mind would be the “That Ain’t Right” anthology that Mad Scientist Journal published last year. Great collection. PLUS it has my football/Cthulhu story “Goat” in it. Just in time for the Superbowl


Conversations Between Writers


A.C. Buchanan

Andi is a genre writer living in New Zealand and a TOC mate of mine from Winter Well. You can check out their website and follow on Twitter. Andi is a fan of eating cheese, befriending lobsters, and writing awesome genre fiction about queer, and neurodiverse characters. I’ve been a fan since Winter Well and am excited to share our conversation.

Andi Buchanan: Hi!

Minerva Zimmerman: Hi! How was your day

AB: Full on! But I have tomorrow off. It’s my birthday and we’re going to see either red pandas or dinosaurs! How about yours?

MZ: Happy Birthday! Both choices are excellent. Not too bad, just winding down. My dogs think it is time for snuggling on the bed. You’re all finished with your Master’s!!!!

AB: Yes, finally! It dragged out a bit at the end, but got there in the end.

MZ: I know your subject was about disability in fiction, but I don’t actually know what your discipline/department is

AB: It’s English Lit – though it wasn’t a project that ended up being neatly contained. That was tough in some ways – I know I’d have ended up with a better theoretical basis in some aspects had I been based in a Disability Studies department, for example, but it was really good that I was allowed to just do my thing and follow my ideas.

MZ: Yeah even something like Anthropology was a possibility, so I didn’t want to speculate 😀

have you gotten to hold it all bound and printed?

AB: Yes, very shiny! Took it up to the library last week.

MZ: /squee I sometimes get all verklempt about not doing a Masters, but now I have over 5 years of experience in museum collections, so it’s hard to justify it when it wouldn’t mean any more pay. Also I live very far from any universities

AB: Yeah, fair enough! It took me a few years to properly want to do one – and I certainly don’t expect it to increase my pay – but I work on a university campus and I could do it part time and pay the fees by installments so, hey, why not.

MZ: Oooo I’m kind of jealous. I love school.

AB: I… may have got stuck! Which is fine, I guess.

MZ: at school? 😀

AB: Between work and study… yep, pretty much.

MZ: but lots and lots of ideas for fiction! it’s like… a nexus of ideas

AB: I have occasionally been tempted to write – you know those Hotel Babylon, Wedding Planning Babylon etc – books that compress alllll the dramas down into a single day? If I wasn’t bound by confidentiality I’d totally write a University Babylon one.

MZ: 😀

AB: But maybe you were talking about being in the intellectual heart of the city, the free exchange of ideas…

MZ: Both! You need both for good fiction (in my opinion)

AB: On the more serious side, holding on to a university library card is definitely for a bonus for someone who is (a) a complete nerd and (b) wants to research fiction.

MZ: Ok, that I am TOTALLY jealous of. You can do a lot more online these days, but I miss having access to article databases, and just… randomly finding books.

AB: Yeah, it’s the journal databases that are the big draw… but being able to hunt through the shelves is pretty fun too, even though I don’t do it as often as I should.

MZ: and nice little nooks to write. You have a novel coming out in march

AB: Yes – a novella, technically – it’s called Liquid City and it’s mostly steampunk-ish with some space opera and new weird type elements (I find genre classification hard).

MZ: …do I detect lobsters?

AB: It’s about the people who transport cargo through the tunnels underneath a rapidly-industrializing city, and what they find when they head into unexplored territory.

No lobsters this time, but a rather grumpy cephalopod.

MZ: that’s sort of kind of a little lobstery.. well, more tentacles and less shell

AB: I’ll give him a couple of pincers in the edits.

MZ: and ok, totally not the same 😀 What are you working on right now?

AB: ALL the things! Aside from a round of edits on Liquid City, I’m focused on a couple of short stories at the moment. Then I have another novella I want to take a look at editing – it’s near future queer romance, with heaps of magic and the odd sunken village.

MZ: As you do…

AB: I have a novel on the go, very slowly, and at some point I’m going to be thinking about a sequel for Liquid City.

MZ: cool! Is there anything else you want to make sure we talk about?

AB: Nothing springs to mind, sorry! I know that’s not very helpful…

MZ: That’s Ok! I just want to make sure I’m not monopolizing the conversation.

AB: No go for it! You’re not monopolising, you’re guiding!

MZ: I’m kind of curious about the choice between Red Pandas and Dinosaurs. I mean those aren’t usually at the same place.

AB: Nah – it’s a case of the zoo if it’s good weather, the museum if not. Or, maybe the red pandas have discovered a lost colony of dinosaurs and formed a symbiotic relationship.

MZ: That’d be pretty cool actually… I’d watch that movie

AB: We have a rogue swarm of bees on the loose by my workplace, so there are going to be animals wherever I go.

MZ: rogue bees? like, Africanized bees?


MZ: sneaky bees. I imagine they were buzzing the theme song to Mission Impossible

AB: I expect so.

MZ: I wonder if the person sent to capture the bees just forgot where they put the box and were like “uhhh they escaped. Yeah, that’s it”

AB: Have you seen the cartoon about the scientists eating bees? It’s one of my favourites.

MZ: no! Where can I see it?

AB: Ah can’t find the picture but the joke works fine without it:

Scientist: But WHY is the bee population dying?
Scientist: No idea. *eats bee*
Scientist: Did you just eat a bee? Scientist: *eats bee* No.

MZ: hahahaha

AB: This makes me laugh probably out of proportion to its actually funniness.

MZ: I dunno, I think it is pretty funny. Not sure why, it just is.

AB: *eats bee*

MZ: hahahahha

Well, I should probably let you get a cider and start in on your birthday celebrations

AB: Mmm cider! Celebrations are tomorrow but cider is any day.

MZ: I’ve been hoarding all my seasonal spiced cider

AB: Oooh. I had a nice pear and ginger one last week.

MZ: Oooo I love pear cider.

AB: Anyway, thank you for listening to me talk about bees.

MZ: *eats bee* 😀

AB: om nom nom


Conversations Between Writers

photo by Folly Blaine
photo by Folly Blaine

Randy Henderson

This week I’m delighted to bring you a conversation with Randy Henderson whose first novel FINN FANCY NECROMANCY comes out from Tor on February 10th. I’ve heard him read from it a couple times and one time I even got a pack of vintage Goonies trading cards from him that is still unopened because I promised he could watch me eat the gum. In my defense this was before I knew just how bad vintage trading card gum tastes…

Anyway, check out his website, follow him on Twitter, and preorder his book!

Minerva Zimmerman: hello

Randy Henderson: Greetings, program.

MZ: Man, I can’t remember the right Tron response to that. I am ashamed.

RH: To the MCP with you.

MZ: 😛 How are you holding up with all of the pending publication stuff?

RH: Using pillars. And a table with a book under one leg.

It’s good problems to have, but the publishing cycle is a tough one. I have to turn in book 2 while promoting book 1 and then jump right into writing book 3.

MZ: That’s really rough.

RH: I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Well, except doing it without having to work full time and deal with life stuff. And by doing it, I mean writing. And by writing, I mean crying a lot and eating lots of junk food and then pouring out words and chuckling at my own cleverness before realizing I’m a complete impostor.

MZ: How far apart are the books coming out?

RH: One year apart. So I have to write a book a year.

MZ: …and promote, and not go nuts, and like, feed and bathe yourself etc.

RH: Which isn’t so bad, if you pace yourself right, and life stuff doesn’t throw you off too much.

Wait, I’m supposed to bathe? Myself?

MZ: fraid so, didn’t you get the memo?

RH: About the TPS reports?

MZ: No no, this was the one about how sponge baths will no longer be provided because of The Incident.

RH: Oh. That. Look, I’d had a lot of cocoa and was a bit high on sugar. I’m sure the bite marks will fade. And with the fur, you can’t even see them on the rabbit anyway. Have you ever been bathed with a live rabbit? So decadent. But I’ve said too much.

MZ: So for people who don’t know, you’ve got a book coming out about a Necromancer who has just been returned home after spending 25? years in Faerie and is kind of well, stuck in the 80s.

RH: Do I? Holy crap, that’s awesome!

MZ: You do!

RH: I mean, yes, yes I do.

MZ: and when he gets back… things are not as they are supposed to be and… hilarity and horror ensue. Is that a pretty good introduction?

RH: That about sums it up, yep 🙂 I keep being surprised it sold. I keep thinking, I had too much fun writing it, it can’t be good. And it certainly isn’t going to win any awards or anything, but the reviews thus far have all been largely “this is a fun, fast read.” So, phew.

MZ: I’m super glad it sold I’ve been waiting to read the rest for awhile 🙂

RH: Thanks! I’m moderately pleased as well 😉 It’s weird to talk about Finn Fancy when I’ve been immersed in writing the next book for the last 6 months.

MZ: Also, I’d say that your style at least on this book is pretty similar to how I write urban fantasy, so I’m glad it’s marketable 😀

RH: That’s why I did it. I was like, I shall be the Sugarhill Gang to Minerva’s LL Cool J. Or more accurately, I’m like the Joy Division to your Depeche Mode. Or Television to your Strokes? Anyway …

MZ: As long as Love Doesn’t Tear Us Apart and People are People… we should be fine (ugh ok, that was pretty forced and terrible)

RH: Pretty damn good on the fly!

You’re like my own personal Jesus.

MZ: 😀

RH: And right about now, the readers are like, “I’m feeling more Enjoy the Silence” …

MZ: Probably true… Anyway people, if you’ve liked any of my urban fantasy stuff you’re going to love Randy’s Finn Fancy

RH: Aww, thanks. And if you like my peanut butter, you’ll like … no, that doesn’t sound right. But I do think we will likely end up on many panels and book tours together in the years to come.

MZ: I hope so, we shall create much gleeful chaos.

RH: I did finally put a vampire in book 2. Not to spoil anything. I think people will assume from the Necromancy part there will be lots of zombies and vamps and stuff, but I kind of went a different direction for the most part. Left, mostly, and then rapidly downhill.

MZ: with no brakes! I mean, brakes didn’t seem important at the top of the hill…

RH: And a banana cream pie. What could go wrong? So I know you’ve got a sekret project. Anything you can share about it? And I don’t mean that container in the back of the fridge. Or the moans coming from your basement.

MZ: Not too much yet, hopefully the cat will be out of the bag before too much longer. And no we won’t talk about that container. That is staying put. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the moans… which I just am not going to talk about because THEY might be listening.

Let’s just say I’m a huge fan of fun fast reads and will have something later in the year.

RH: Suh-Weet!

MZ: What else has been burning up your brain in between the pending publication and your responsibilities fighting the forces of inky darkness?

RH: The unfairness of only having egg nog in stores during the holidays. I’ve been thinking about starting a kickstarter, and a campaign, maybe trying to get Bono involved. Because I can think of no more pressing issue in our time than inconsistent access to egg nog.

MZ: Ooo sign me up. Especially if you add non-dairy egg nog

RH: Really, I’ve been seriously consumed with the book stuff these past months. I feel really boring when I talk to anyone, because I’m barely aware of anything outside the little world I created in my brain. Which some would say is the story of my life, but it is even worse right now.

MZ: I had some horded in the fridge but it expired while I was on vacation and I can’t bring myself to throw it away or risk drinking it.

RH: That’s the worst. Undrunk egg nog. Mocking you from the fridge. Shaming you.

MZ: I was going to make chia pudding out of it and pretend it was healthy


MZ: and not slowly killing me with its deliciousness

RH: Yeah. Slow, creamy, delicious death. Mmmmm.

MZ: I mean they probably ration it so we aren’t easily invaded. I bet having year round egg nog would be a pretty good invasion strategy

RH: For elves?

MZ: but you’d have to convince the invaders not to take the offered egg nog when they get there…

RH: I don’t trust elves. Shifty.

MZ: hmmm there is a serious problem with my cunning plan. Maybe pod people would be able to refuse egg nog. Pretty sure elves just want any excuse to party. Also, to buy shoes.

RH: The first short story I wrote, back when I had to walk uphill through the snow both ways to my electric typewriter, involved inoculating the populace using He-Man Slime Pit refill slime so that when the aliens tried to slime us and take over our brains we were immune.

My writing got silly after that. I can’t believe I never published that one. Sigh.

MZ: It’d be a weird thing to have to build a time machine to go back and get to save the Earth… but it JUST MIGHT WORK.

RH: Well, there is the Star Trek reboot. They’ve done Kahn. Now they can skip Search for Spock and just go right to IV, only instead of whales, they have to go back and get Egg Nog! Or He-Man Slime! Or Elves! Okay, I think I’ve kind of lost track of what the heck we’re talking about here. 😛

MZ: It’s Ok, that’s kind of a feature. My first sort of serious short story I wrote was about sentient potato chip bag glue.You know those writing exercises where they ask you to fill in a bunch of questions?

RH: Ooooo. I hear MIT is working on that. You’re a visionary you are. Is that a writing exercise? Your question?

MZ: There was one that was “I wonder why _______?” and I put “potato chip bags are so hard to open”

RH: Wow. You must be able to write really small. Because those words are, like, five times as long as the blank 😉

MZ: teeny tiny fingers. It helps.

RH: And fountain pens with fine nibs.

MZ: Indeed. Well, is there anything else you want to make sure we talk about?

RH: I’m bummed about missing Rainforest Writing Retreat this year. All my friends from far away magical lands are going to be there (at least the ones who don’t already live in my head) while I’m visiting their far away magical lands on my book tour. But I will be guest-teaching at Cascade Writers again, I do believe. And I’m planning a series of free workshop on writing genre fiction to go with my book tour, trying to pay it back a bit and connect with folks on a real level in person.

MZ: Are you going to make it to WorldCon in August?

RH: Yup! Sasquan! My book has sasquatches, so seemed appropriate. 🙂

MZ: Sweet! I just registered this morning. I’ll get to see you there if we don’t meet up before that.

RH: Yay-ness!

MZ: Well, I suppose we should go do that thing where we sit in a room and make words appear and giggle quietly to ourselves. Manly giggles. Very manly.

RH: Oh, was that me giggling? Phew. I was getting worried, since there was nobody else in the room…

MZ: And when is the official launch of Finn Fancy?

RH: February 10, 2015 from Tor in North America. And it is also being released by Titan in the UK on February 13th. And I’ll be touring the US West Coast to support the launch.

Sadly I shan’t be touring the UK. Yet.

MZ: Sweet! I will have to try and get to Powells when you hit there.

RH: Do. Because if you wait until afterwards, you will find only rubble. And dead elves. And a crying clown. And that is all. Except a banana cream pie. But that is it. So don’t miss it. Because the pie will be past its expiration. But still look mostly edible. But it isn’t. Because it’s expired. The pie. Not the clown. Why would you eat a clown?

MZ: not because of the dead elf in the pie?

RH: Damn it Minerva, you spoiled the whole prank. Sigh.

(UPDATE: You can now read the first 3 chapters of FINN FANCY NECROMANCY )

Conversations Between Writers


Jessie Kwak

I first met Jessie at Cascade Writers in 2011 where we spent several days trying to figure out why the other looked familiar until we FINALLY figured out we followed each other on Twitter and had no other direct connections. You can check out more about her writing at and follow her on Twitter. For all of you crafty people and bicyclists I suggest you check out her bikes and craft blog too.


Minerva Zimmerman: How are you doing today? I keep forgetting you’re practically local to me now.

Jessie Kwak: I know! I haven’t gotten out to that part of the coast since we last Twittered about me being in town. I’m doing well – had a dentist visit this morning, which is always … fun.

My dentist is nice, though. How are you?

MZ: I’m doing OK. A little sore, had a busy weekend making cookies.

JK: What kind?

MZ: Ooo, I made ginger snaps, wedding bells, and berliner wreaths

JK: Yum! I made angel cookies for a cookie exchange with neighbors.

MZ: I need to make krumkake tonight

JK: Are you baking for an event? Or just general holiday merriment?

MZ: I’m giving them as gifts and for a trip to the in-laws. It just isn’t the holidays if I don’t get to bake

JK: Right! Maybe I should do cookies as gifts this year. I’m still at a loss for most of the people on my list.

MZ: I’m hoping to do some homemade marshmallows too, but I’m not sure if I’ll run out of energy.

JK: I’ve never tried to make marshmallows. Is it hard?

MZ: I haven’t either 🙂 It’s not supposed to be too bad if you have a stand mixer. You have to get the sugar part to the soft ball stage which I’m a little skeptical about. I suppose if I cook it too much I just end up with caramelized marshmallows?

JK: It’s not too hard to get it to the soft ball stage if you have a candy thermometer.

I think the marshmallows would just be chewier. But if you get it past soft ball you can always add a bit more water and try to hit it again. I’ve done that before making divinity, and it works all right.

MZ: yeah, and I do have a candy thermometer, I’m just weird about doing sugar cooking. I’ve had bad results in the past.

JK: Let me know how it goes – I’m curious!

MZ: I love eating them so I’m hopeful.

JK: And now all I want to eat is cookies, which is terrible after just getting my teeth cleaned.  🙂

MZ: heh, but it is cookie eating time!

JK: Yep. Probably should have waited until after Christmas for the cleaning, but I’d put it off way too long! I’m finally an adult with insurance now, so I figured I should probably use it.

MZ: Yeah, if you need to get in before end of the year you have to take your appointments when you can get them

JK: Right. What are you working on these days? Anything fun? Besides cookies, obviously.

MZ:  I am actually working on Runed Creek right now, which is the story I took to Cascade Writers all those years ago. It’s weird how stuff never seems to go from point A to B in writing.

I set it aside because I ended up selling some other projects and had to work on those and I’m just now really getting back to it. What are you working on?

JK: I think that stories are a lot like good soup stocks, where you need to let them simmer forever, and throw things in from time to time. I’m working on a couple of things right now

First is a project with some friends in Seattle, called Four Windows – I’m editing it along with my friend Christine. There are four writers (myself included), and we’re each working on a novel set in Seattle. We’re publishing them serially in a journal format. We published the first quarter in September, the second quarter last month, and the third quarter will be out in February.

MZ: Oh what a cool thing!

JK: We’re workshopping our stories together as we go. It’s been a really fun process, but the timeline of serially publishing is kind of stressful. Like I added in a big plot twist at the end of section two that really screwed up the timeline I’d already plotted out, but now it’s published so I have to figure out how to work it in. 🙂

MZ: Yeah, that’s what the second half of my 2015 is going to entail (no public details yet!)

JK: It’s fun, but really different.

MZ: I think it’s a good way to go

JK: You’ll be serially publishing something in 2015?

MZ: yes 🙂

JK: I’m so curious! It’s a really fun way to write.

MZ: I think some stories are just a good match for serial

JK: Totally.

MZ: It’s like binge-watching on Netflix

JK: Yes!

MZ: sometimes it makes sense to release stuff in chunks

so that people who devour it can devour it and still want more

JK: I think if we were going to do this again, I’d release things in smaller chunks, on a tighter timeline. Probably I’d want to have more of it written before I started releasing it to take some of the pressure off, but I think people have a short attention span and quicker release dates would have been a good idea for the Four Windows project. Right now each section is almost 3 months apart.

MZ: Yeah, I’m hoping to get stuff done beforehand mostly. So that the release dates aren’t dependent on me finishing things. But I also used to run a web comic that had major update problems, so it might just be me 🙂

JK: When you combine the logistics of publishing with the writing side of things, it gets tough.

MZ: No publishing plan survives contact with life.

JK: I’ve probably spent more time formatting and editing and promoting Four Windows than I have had time to write my story. Haha, so true! The best laid plans of mice and men…

MZ: Yeah, once you get to this point the actual writing is only a % of time.

JK: Right.

MZ: Which is kind of annoying sometimes .

JK: Yes. My “day job” is as a freelance copywriter, which takes up a lot of my creative writing energy as it is.

MZ: Ooof. Typing for work always saps my ability to write for fiction

JK: I’m learning how to transition, but it’s been a challenge for sure. For a long time it was hard to quit the sales copy brain and get into lyrical writing brain. I kept wanting to describe the features and benefits of my characters interactions.

MZ: Heh.

JK: But there are benefits, too. One of my main clients is an apartment rental place, and I write glowing copy about the homes they rent – which I think has helped me learn to describe setting better.

MZ: Ooo, I tend to have white room syndrome

JK: I’ve learned a lot about the economy of language. Ha – the problem is that now all my story settings are mid-century modern chic. 🙂

MZ: Heheheh So, white rooms are a feature!

JK: With Noguchi coffee tables and Eames chairs, and ironic artisan lightbulbs. There you go! White rooms are a feature, and the benefit is that the reader gets to supply her own setting.

MZ: Yeah, I’m trying to grab at those little items that breathe life into a setting.

JK: I heard someone say just choose three things. For setting, or for character.

MZ: Which is hard sometimes when you have characters who are cluttered magpies.

JK: Yes, for sure. Maybe the task then is to choose three things that best represent the cluttered magpie-ness of the character, and pique the reader’s interest. Then you can flesh them out from there.

MZ: Yeah. I think I’m getting better, but it’s something I have to spend a lot of mental energy thinking about.

JK: The other thing I’m working on is a novel for a small press in Portland, Elly Blue Publishing.

MZ: Ooo

JK: She publishes bike non-fiction, mainly, but she’s started a series of short story collections called Bikes in Space.

MZ: Cool! I wanted to ask about your biking and how it is different in Portland vs. Seattle

JK: They’re feminist bicycle science fiction collections. 🙂

MZ: ! 😀

JK: I’ve had stories in the first two (and one coming out in the third issue next year), and one of the stories turned out to be a much bigger idea, so Elly and I talked about serializing it.

Eventually we decided it should just be a novel. It takes the idea of projects like “Bikes to Rwanda,” and sets it on a colony planet in the future. And then adds in the mafia, and aliens.

I’m really, really excited to write it – It’s going to be super fun.

MZ: I like these things.

JK: Going back to your question about biking in Seattle vs Portland – Portland is definitely more bike friendly. It’s flatter, too, which is nice, and there’s tons of bike infrastructure.

The downside is that with no hills and no traffic to battle, I feel like less of a badass biking here than I did in Seattle.

MZ: Hah. I’d never thought of it that way.

JK: There’s a certain pride that comes with commuting up Capitol Hill every day. Although now that I work from home, my commute is pretty weaksauce anyway. I’ve started running in the mornings to make up for it.  🙂 I never thought I’d be a runner. Portland did this to me. Or maybe it’s all the cookies that I like to eat. 🙂

MZ: 🙂

JK: Overall I like Portland, though. I’m meeting other writers, other cyclists, and getting to know neighbors. People seem pretty friendly here, and willing to meet up for coffee or to just hang out.

There are definitely some Portlandia moments, though! I look around some times and think “Where on earth AM I?”

MZ: Heh. Is there anything like that, that sticks out in particular?

JK: There was a guy at the grocery store the other day wearing purple zebra pajamas and a matching chullo hat. People just let their freak flag fly, which is lovely. Also, one of our neighbors has a window built into their chicken coop to the sidewalk, and a chalk board so people walking by can write messages to the chickens. Which is odd, but kind of charming. And at least once a week someone on the neighborhood list serve posts something like: “I just saw a goat at the corner of the street, is it yours?” Or, “I’m making kambucha this weekend, who wants an extra scoby?” People are super into their homemaking. Which I dig, I grew up on a farm, but am not used to seeing in the city.

MZ: Man, neighborhood list servs and chain emails and such are so… not the future we imagined, but yet so perfect.

JK: Haha, yes!

MZ: I mean, I live pretty rurally, but the way you find out about what’s really going on is checking some particular facebooks and being on certain email lists. Well, what doesn’t get disseminated at Senior Meals… that’s still the fastest way to learn anything.

JK: Senior Meals? I bet there’s some juicy gossip happening there.

MZ: So much.Sooo so much. I get it all second hand. They won’t let me in, I can’t pass in that crowd yet. 😀

JK: That’s not a bad thing.  🙂

MZ: nope. Is there anything else you want to make sure we talk about?

JK: That’s pretty much all I’ve got going on. Dentist, check. Delicious cookies, check. Writing projects, check.  I really would like to chat in person next time I’m out your way – hoping to get through your neck of the woods in the next few months.

MZ: That would be awesome. It’s kind of nice here in the winter when stuff is quiet.

JK: I bet!

MZ: The beachcombing is the best too 🙂

JK: Ooh! Well, give me a shout if you make it over here, and I’ll do the same.

MZ: That would be fabulous. Stay dry! I’d say stay warm, but it’s downright balmy out

JK: You, too! And happy holidays, happy new year, all that jazz.  🙂